PowerTail! (a push stick without a handle)

After further thought, no doubt it would be awesome.

Imagine having a tail that pushes you on skates. That would just
rock.

If you have ever used a push stick of any sort, you will know what
I mean. If you want to experience the thrill, try one like the
"roller cycle" (as seen on YouTube).

But the handleless type Motail (motorized tail, pronounced with a
Southern drawl) would be the greatest thing to happen to inline
skating. After that, motorized skates might happen, but not until
motor and battery technology greatly evolve.

My current Motail effort will use a small unicycle, with an 18 V
cordless drill attached to the hub. Assuming this goes well, I
might try a handleless version later. It might need to be much
lighter, maybe using a 140 mm scooter wheel. As motor and battery
technology evolves, it can produce a seriously powerful Motail.
That would be a riot.

t***@thsu.org

2011-02-10 01:31:38 UTC

Post by John Doe
My current Motail effort will use a small unicycle, with an 18 V
cordless drill attached to the hub.

So let me see if I understand this correctly.

You are trying to duplicate the Rollercycle, which is using a 1.5hp
engine with a liter of gasoline to reach 25 mph. A 1.5hp engine is
equivalent to 1118 watts and my guess is that 1 liter of gas is 1 hour
of run time, for a total of 1118 watt-hours of energy.

I have a typical 18v Dewalt NiMH cordless battery sitting next to me
that says that it is rated for 2.4ah, for a total of 43.2 watt-hours
of energy. Next, most electric motors in power tools are only 50-60%
efficient, meaning that you should expect, at most, 26 watt-hours of
output from your drill.

That means the gasoline engine is going to be 43 times more powerful
than your cordless drill. Thus, you should expect only 1/43rd of the
performance.

Now then, I have nothing against innovation, but a simple back of the
napkin calculation shows me that you are going to need a much larger
battery.
--
// T.Hsu

John Doe

2011-02-10 03:05:22 UTC

Post by John Doe
My current Motail effort will use a small unicycle, with an 18
V cordless drill attached to the hub.

So let me see if I understand this correctly.
You are trying to duplicate the Rollercycle,

I am using the Roller Cycle as a YouTube example of a push stick
for inline skating, but mine must use a quiet electric motor.

Post by t***@thsu.org
which is using a 1.5hp engine with a liter of gasoline to reach
25 mph. A 1.5hp engine is equivalent to 1118 watts and my guess
is that 1 liter of gas is 1 hour of run time, for a total of
1118 watt-hours of energy.

The Roller Cycle with its noisy gasoline engine is overpowered for
my needs. But at least it looks macho, especially with the
stroking and all...

Post by t***@thsu.org
I have a typical 18v Dewalt NiMH cordless battery sitting next
to me that says that it is rated for 2.4ah, for a total of 43.2
watt-hours of energy. Next, most electric motors in power tools
are only 50-60% efficient,

That sounds low for a name brand power tool. Efficiency is
everything in a professional grade handheld cordless drill.

Post by t***@thsu.org
meaning that you should expect, at most, 26 watt-hours of output
from your drill.
That means the gasoline engine is going to be 43 times more
powerful than your cordless drill. Thus, you should expect only
1/43rd of the performance.
Now then, I have nothing against innovation, but a simple back
of the napkin calculation shows me that you are going to need a
much larger battery.

Like which?

From experience, I built and used one already, so I have an idea
of the power requirements (using massively heavy SLA batteries). I
agree that my current effort is probably underpowered, but it
should be much lighter. It will be mainly for testing, and it can
be upgraded. The most interesting part of my current effort is the
unicycle, if the @#$! thing ever gets here.

The concept is what really matters, and this one is great fun.
Anybody who can afford it and wants an easy to construct version
can simply purchase a Trikke Pon-e. Practically all you would have
to do with that thing, to convert it to an electric push stick for
inline skating, is to remove the handlebar from the rest of the
thing. Or maybe find only the replacement parts. Unfortunately,
apparently Trikke is not very good with replacement parts.

Anybody here or anywhere in the world who has any experience with
a push stick for in-line skating should post about it. A
handleless push stick combined with my big front wheel skates is
going to be outrageous fun, someday.
--

Post by t***@thsu.org
--
// T.Hsu

see also Google Groups

Post by t***@thsu.org
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From: ting thsu.org
Newsgroups: rec.sport.skating.inline
Subject: Re: PowerTail! (a push stick without a handle)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2011 17:31:38 -0800 (PST)
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t***@thsu.org

2011-02-11 21:47:25 UTC

Post by t***@thsu.org
Now then, I have nothing against innovation, but a simple back
of the napkin calculation shows me that you are going to need a
much larger battery.

Like which?

You realize that there are a ton of batteries out there, right? DeWalt
for example has 36v power tools using 2.4ah batteries.

In addition, nearly all batteries in power tools are really a bunch of
AA batteries enclosed in plastic.

When I put together my music box, I ended up buying lithium ion AA
batteries off the internet that were pre-wired in 12v packs. I was
running 24v at 2.4ah at around 1lb of total battery weight.

If those power to weight ratios surprise you, then you haven't been
looking around hard enough. The battery in the iPad weighs 33% less
per watt-hour than the batteries I used.

Finally, for some reason, you think your concept is new. It's not.
It's just an electric engine attached to a wheel. You should be on one
of those DIY electric bicycle builder forums, not here. I'm willing to
bet my life savings that someone has already built an electric
unicycle, and what you are proposing isn't a whole lot different than
that.
--
// T.Hsu

John Doe

2011-02-11 22:07:29 UTC

I don't care what you think is appropriate for this group, Thing.
You self-admittedly haven't even skated for years. You show up
here not to post about skating, but to troll me, so go fuck
yourself.

Post by t***@thsu.org
Now then, I have nothing against innovation, but a simple back
of the napkin calculation shows me that you are going to need a
much larger battery.

Like which?

You realize that there are a ton of batteries out there, right? DeWalt
for example has 36v power tools using 2.4ah batteries.
In addition, nearly all batteries in power tools are really a bunch of
AA batteries enclosed in plastic.
When I put together my music box, I ended up buying lithium ion AA
batteries off the internet that were pre-wired in 12v packs. I was
running 24v at 2.4ah at around 1lb of total battery weight.
If those power to weight ratios surprise you, then you haven't been
looking around hard enough. The battery in the iPad weighs 33% less
per watt-hour than the batteries I used.
Finally, for some reason, you think your concept is new. It's not.
It's just an electric engine attached to a wheel. You should be on one
of those DIY electric bicycle builder forums, not here. I'm willing to
bet my life savings that someone has already built an electric
unicycle, and what you are proposing isn't a whole lot different than
that.
--
// T.Hsu

see also Google Groups

Post by t***@thsu.org
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From: ting thsu.org
Newsgroups: rec.sport.skating.inline
Subject: Re: PowerTail! (a push stick without a handle)
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t***@thsu.org

2011-02-12 03:56:24 UTC

Post by John Doe
I don't care what you think is appropriate for this group, Thing.
You self-admittedly haven't even skated for years. You show up
here not to post about skating, but to troll me, so go fuck
yourself.

I admit, I am trolling. But man, you leave yourself so open that it's
hard to resist. I have rarely run across someone wearing such large
blinders.

And I skated all last summer. Had you been to any of the eastern
skating events, up and down the Atlantic coast, you would've seen me -
I'm not shy.
--
// T.Hsu

John Doe

2011-02-12 04:30:28 UTC

Post by John Doe
I don't care what you think is appropriate for this group,
Thing. You self-admittedly haven't even skated for years. You
show up here not to post about skating, but to troll me, so go
fuck yourself.

I admit, I am trolling. But man, you leave yourself so open that
it's hard to resist. I have rarely run across someone wearing
such large blinders.

You find it hard to resist trolling, Thing, I find it easy to talk
about skating. I suspect your mother, more than I, has something
to do with your problem.

Post by t***@thsu.org
And I skated all last summer. Had you been to any of the eastern
skating events, up and down the Atlantic coast, you would've
seen me - I'm not shy.

Right, Thing, you are an asshole.
--

Post by t***@thsu.org
--
// T.Hsu

see also Google Groups

Post by t***@thsu.org
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From: ting thsu.org
Newsgroups: rec.sport.skating.inline
Subject: Re: PowerTail! (a push stick without a handle)
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2011 19:56:24 -0800 (PST)
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John Doe

2011-02-12 05:07:11 UTC

Post by t***@thsu.org
And I skated all last summer. Had you been to any of the eastern
skating events, up and down the Atlantic coast, you would've
seen me

Is there any evidence of those "skating events" anywhere on the
Internet, Thing?

Apparently, the only thing you have talked about within the last
year or so is WarCraft.
--

Post by t***@thsu.org
-
I'm not shy.
--
// T.Hsu

see also Google Groups

Post by t***@thsu.org
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From: ting thsu.org
Newsgroups: rec.sport.skating.inline
Subject: Re: PowerTail! (a push stick without a handle)
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2011 19:56:24 -0800 (PST)
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t***@thsu.org

2011-02-13 15:48:31 UTC

Post by John Doe
Is there any evidence of those "skating events" anywhere on the
Internet, Thing?

Wouldn't it be great if someone made a website where you could post a
few quick pictures, a few quick comments, and only your friends could
see them? I'd bet that this friends-only website would become very
popular.
--
// T.Hsu

John Doe

2011-02-13 16:42:29 UTC

Post by John Doe
Is there any evidence of those "skating events" anywhere on the
Internet, Thing?

Wouldn't it be great

It would, Thing, it might suggest that you are more than just a
not-quite-grown-up troll constantly spewing bullshit.

Post by t***@thsu.org
if someone made a website where you could post a few quick
pictures, a few quick comments, and only your friends could see
them? I'd bet that this friends-only website would become very
popular.

So those "skating events" you go to are all private? The results
are hidden in some dark place like inside your World of WarCraft?

You are just a troll, Thing, you don't skate, that's why you never
talk about skating.
--

Post by t***@thsu.org
--
// T.Hsu

Ting Hsu
thsu thsu.org
http://www.thsu.org/
http://www.tingster.com/
see also Google Groups

Post by t***@thsu.org
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From: ting thsu.org
Newsgroups: rec.sport.skating.inline
Subject: Re: PowerTail! (a push stick without a handle)
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 07:48:31 -0800 (PST)
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inlina

2011-02-13 02:23:42 UTC

Post by John Doe
My current Motail effort will use a small unicycle, with an 18 V
cordless drill attached to the hub.

So let me see if I understand this correctly.
You are trying to duplicate the Rollercycle, which is using a 1.5hp
engine with a liter of gasoline to reach 25 mph. A 1.5hp engine is
equivalent to 1118 watts and my guess is that 1 liter of gas is 1 hour
of run time, for a total of 1118 watt-hours of energy.
I have a typical 18v Dewalt NiMH cordless battery sitting next to me
that says that it is rated for 2.4ah, for a total of 43.2 watt-hours
of energy. Next, most electric motors in power tools are only 50-60%
efficient, meaning that you should expect, at most, 26 watt-hours of
output from your drill.
That means the gasoline engine is going to be 43 times more powerful
than your cordless drill. Thus, you should expect only 1/43rd of the
performance.
Now then, I have nothing against innovation, but a simple back of the
napkin calculation shows me that you are going to need a much larger
battery.
--
// T.Hsu

+1

This guy used a 1HP motor for his bike...

http://www.peltzer.net/ebike/

He also suggests that you shouldn't go under around 400watts or 1/2HP
for a bike. Given the size of the motor he has and the size of his
battery packs, I doubt a cordless electric drill is going to go very
far and I doubt it will be very fast (if you get any kinetic energy at
all).

CG

John Doe

2011-02-13 05:40:50 UTC

Post by John Doe
My current Motail effort will use a small unicycle, with an
18 V cordless drill attached to the hub.

Now then, I have nothing against innovation, but a simple back
of the napkin calculation shows me that you are going to need a
much larger battery. -- // T.Hsu

The non-skater agrees with the other non-skater. Alert the media!

Post by inlina
This guy used a 1HP motor for his bike...
http://www.peltzer.net/ebike/

The majority of do-it-yourself electric assisted bicycles use a
hub motor, Corey, not a motor with chain drive. The cheapest use a
motor with chain drive, but even many store-bought models come
with hub motors. Do some research, boy.

Post by inlina
He also suggests that you shouldn't go under around 400watts or
1/2HP for a bike.

Just because you find a picture of a bicycle with a motor and
battery tied to it, does not mean that you have discovered the
inventor of the electric bicycle.

Post by inlina
Given the size of the motor he has and the size of his battery
packs, I doubt a cordless electric drill is going to go very far
and I doubt it will be very fast (if you get any kinetic energy
at all).

But of course it depends on the particular cordless electric drill
and the particular batteries, as any person with a clue should
know.

By the way Corey... Where are those in-line skating discussion
groups you said you were leaving here to hang out in?
Apparently you don't skate at all anymore. I find zero discussion
about in-line skating from you or Thing on the Internet.
The most recent appears to be about a year ago, you reminiscing
about the good old days (as usual).
--

Post by inlina
CG

see also Google Groups

Post by inlina
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From: inlina <inlina gmail.com>
Newsgroups: rec.sport.skating.inline
Subject: Re: PowerTail! (a push stick without a handle)
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2011 18:23:42 -0800 (PST)
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John Doe

2011-02-13 05:44:05 UTC

Post by inlina
I doubt a cordless electric drill

But of course it depends on the particular cordless electric
drill

And I am wondering... What other type of cordless drill is there?
Solar powered? Hand powered? Do they still use hand-powered drills
over there in Australia?

inlina

2011-02-13 08:12:27 UTC

Post by inlina
I doubt a cordless electric drill

But of course it depends on the particular cordless electric
drill

And I am wondering... What other type of cordless drill is there?
Solar powered? Hand powered? Do they still use hand-powered drills
over there in Australia?

Hmmm...I said particluar, not type. I see your straw man building
skills far outweigh your grasp of English.

CG

John Doe

2011-02-13 16:48:35 UTC

Post by inlina
I doubt a cordless electric drill

But of course it depends on the particular cordless electric drill

And I am wondering... What other type of cordless drill is there?
Solar powered? Hand powered? Do they still use hand-powered drills
over there in Australia?

Hmmm...I said particluar,

Are you drunk?
That is my word, you non-skater.

After I replied and thought more about what you said, Corey, I
just wanted to ask what you meant by "cordless electric drill"? Is
that any different than a "cordless drill"? Have you ever seen a
manual cordless drill?
--

Post by inlina
not type. I see your straw man building
skills far outweigh your grasp of English.
CG

see also Google Groups

Post by inlina
Path: news.astraweb.com!border6.newsrouter.astraweb.com!npeer02.iad.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!postnews.google.com!o14g2000prb.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
From: inlina <inlina gmail.com>
Newsgroups: rec.sport.skating.inline
Subject: Re: off-topic garbage, from a has-been skater
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 00:12:27 -0800 (PST)
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inlina

2011-02-13 08:05:54 UTC

Post by inlina
This guy used a 1HP motor for his bike...
http://www.peltzer.net/ebike/

I am talking about the basic physics of torque, power and work. The
drive-train selected has nothing to do with it. Nice straw-man.

Post by inlina
He also suggests that you shouldn't go under around 400watts or
1/2HP for a bike.

Just because you find a picture of a bicycle with a motor and
battery tied to it, does not mean that you have discovered the
inventor of the electric bicycle.

LOL. Cleary you didn't read the page and clearly you don't have a
grasp of basic physics. If he is using a 1HP motor and suggests the
minimum you need to push a human on a bike is a 1/2HP motor (from his
own anicdotal evidence), you are going to need a very similar amount
of power to do the job you want to do, as you are talking about a
quite similar set of masses and losses. The picture has nothing to do
with the fundamental physics.

Your proposed device will have far less energy storage so far less
work can be done therefore far less range, and you will have far less
power on tap so the rate at which the work will be done is lower. You
will probably have far less torque too, so you are going to spend a
lot of time stroking to assist the device at start from rest and low
speeds.

But of course it depends on the particular cordless electric drill
and the particular batteries, as any person with a clue should
know.

Yep, you know physics. Clearly.

Post by John Doe
By the way Corey... Where are those in-line skating discussion
groups you said you were leaving here to hang out in?
Apparently you don't skate at all anymore. I find zero discussion
about in-line skating from you or Thing on the Internet.
The most recent appears to be about a year ago, you reminiscing
about the good old days (as usual).

Not really sure how relevant my recent post history on internet forums
has any bearing on the quality of my advice or knowledge. I don't
discuss many topics on the internet anymore because I am skating,
riding BMX or running my photography business (as well as having a day
job). Been so busy I haven't even posted to my blog for ages. I saw
the light...skating and other activity is more important than talking
about skating or other internerd activities.

I have written a new song about you Mark. It's called "I once was
trolled, but now I've LOLled." Bieber is going to release it as a
single on YouTube. Can we use you in the music video?

CG

John Doe

2011-02-13 17:48:54 UTC

Post by inlina
This guy used a 1HP motor for his bike...
http://www.peltzer.net/ebike/

The majority of do-it-yourself electric assisted bicycles use a
hub motor, Corey, not a motor with chain drive. The cheapest
use a motor with chain drive, but even many store-bought models
come with hub motors. Do some research, boy.

I am talking about the basic physics of torque, power and work.

It is a picture of a crummy electric bicycle.

Post by inlina
He also suggests that you shouldn't go under around 400watts
or 1/2HP for a bike.

Just because you find a picture of a bicycle with a motor and
battery tied to it, does not mean that you have discovered the
inventor of the electric bicycle.

LOL. Cleary you didn't read the page and clearly you don't have
a grasp of basic physics.

I already built one push stick for in-line skating, I have a good
idea of the power requirements. My computer does the boring stuff,
Corey.

As I already stated, yes, my current power is probably too small,
but it is not the most interesting part of my current push stick
for inline skating (roller cycle, Motail) design and the power
will be perfectly upgradable.

Other helpful parts of my current design (using a unicycle frame)
is that it is light, rugged, and easy to assemble.

By the way, Corey, have you ever designed and built anything? I
have asked that lots of times before, with no reply.

Post by inlina
Given the size of the motor he has and the size of his
battery packs, I doubt a cordless electric drill is going to
go very far and I doubt it will be very fast (if you get any
kinetic energy at all).

But of course it depends on the particular cordless electric
drill and the particular batteries, as any person with a clue
should know.

Yep, you know physics. Clearly.

You think that the particular drill and batteries doesn't matter,
Corey? Really?

Post by John Doe
By the way Corey... Where are those in-line skating discussion
groups you said you were leaving here to hang out in?
Apparently you don't skate at all anymore. I find zero
discussion about in-line skating from you or Thing on the
Internet. The most recent appears to be about a year ago, you
reminiscing about the good old days (as usual).

Not really sure how relevant my recent post history on internet
forums has any bearing on the quality of my advice or knowledge.

Well, Corey, if you never consider skating important enough to
talk about, the quality of your trolling does not matter.

Post by inlina
I have written a new song about you Mark. It's called "I once
was trolled, but now I've LOLled." Bieber is going to release it
as a single on YouTube. Can we use you in the music video?

Sure, Corey. And while you are being a distraction here... Why
aren't you married? Is it your baby? Sounds sleazy, having a baby
and not getting married by then. What are you all waiting for?

You say you skate, but apparently all you do is troll.
--

Post by inlina
CG

see also Google Groups

Post by inlina
Path: news.astraweb.com!border6.newsrouter.astraweb.com!npeer03.iad.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!postnews.google.com!k15g2000prk.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
From: inlina <inlina gmail.com>
Newsgroups: rec.sport.skating.inline
Subject: Re: off-topic garbage, from a has-been skater
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 00:05:54 -0800 (PST)
Organization: http://groups.google.com
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inlina

2011-02-13 20:23:58 UTC

Post by John Doe
By the way, Corey, have you ever designed and built anything? I
have asked that lots of times before, with no reply.

I do it for a living. And I must be doing something right because I
get paid quite well for it too.

Sure, Corey. And while you are being a distraction here... Why
aren't you married? Is it your baby? Sounds sleazy, having a baby
and not getting married by then. What are you all waiting for?
You say you skate, but apparently all you do is troll.

You're funny. You dish out insults, but you can't take them yourself.
My marital status or lifestyle choice is certainly irrelevant and off-
topic. I don't ask you if you've ever managed to hold down a
relationship with anything other than your cats, so I don't see why
you should bring my personal choices into question.

Oh well, I have spent my 2 cents on troll food. It was fun. I hope you
have a full belly. If anyone out there actaully wants to discuss
skating the Skatelog Forums are great. Almost troll free too
considering how much traffic they get.

Peace out.
CG

P.S. my people will get in touch with Bieber's people who be in touch
with your people about the music video. Stay by the phone.

John Doe

2011-02-13 21:13:09 UTC

Post by John Doe
By the way, Corey, have you ever designed and built anything? I
have asked that lots of times before, with no reply.

I do it for a living.

What have you designed and built, Corey?