smelling rubber: videos heel-brake stops on rec skates

[Ken Roberts]

I put some video clips of heel-brake stops from higher speed and down a
steep hill on this page:
http://www.roberts-1.com/t/808/hb

Other heel-braking videos I've seen so far show stopping only on flat land
from slower speed. And some people say heel brakes don't really work. Or
that heel-brakes only work for novice terrain and novice speeds. Or that you
can only use a heel-brake in a serious stopping situation if you've got a
"leash" to help with it.

I use heel-brake stops (without a "leash") going down real steep hills into
stop-sign intersections. And for 30-mile road-skate tours out there with
lotsa cars who sometimes do unexpected things right in front of me. For me
heel-brakes are a serious tool that really works for skating in serious
places, so I tried to make some videos that show that.

But . . .
not for speedskates.
There's at least three fundamentally different methods of using a
heel-brake -- and the most effective one I know (the method shown in those
videos) requires a high stiff back on the skate boot. Like on almost all
"recreational" skates. Like on some "fitness" skates but not others.
. . . (Not on serious speedskates -- they need a leash in order to deliver
really strong stopping thru a heel-brake.)

But . . .
even on "recreational" skates with a high back designed for heel-brake
stopping, you have to know and use the right technique, which is not
obvious, and not known or used by most recreational skaters.

I think that a skilled skater on "recreational" skates made by Rollerblade
or K2 can learn to stop as quickly as most people on a bicycle (but not as
quick as a car).

Ken

[John Doe]

Post by Ken Roberts
I put some video clips of heel-brake stops from higher speed and
http://www.roberts-1.com/t/808/hb

Good videos IMO.
By the way. All I had to do was click on a picture and give Media
Player access to the Internet through my firewall. Easy as pie.

Not about braking, but here are two cool skating videos I've posted
before.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/***@N04/2782440215/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/***@N04/2783292816/

[Dave]

On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 23:24:41 GMT, "Ken Roberts"

Post by Ken Roberts
I put some video clips of heel-brake stops from higher speed and down a
http://www.roberts-1.com/t/808/hb

[snip]

Thanks Ken. I live in Edinburgh Scotland which is rather hilly. I
depend on my heel brake because other methods of braking aren't an
option when there's pedestrians and cyclists restricting your freedom
of movement.

I use Hypno skates and have had some success resurfacing my heel brake
with shoe repair materials. A local chain of key-cutting, shoe-repair
shops called Timpsons sell rubber soles and contact adhesive and I cut
the rubber to size and glue layers on when the brake wears away.

<http://www.henniker.org.uk/html/personal_skating.htm>

best wishes, Dave.
<http://www.henniker.org.uk> 3000 photos especially
Edinburgh & Scotland. + 3D rendered art, old ads etc.
Délété david for email; watch the spam filters.

[Motorblade]

Post by Ken Roberts
I put some video clips of heel-brake stops from higher speed and down a
steep hill on this page:http://www.roberts-1.com/t/808/hb
Other heel-braking videos I've seen so far show stopping only on flat land
from slower speed. And some people say heel brakes don't really work. Or
that heel-brakes only work for novice terrain and novice speeds. Or that you
can only use a heel-brake in a serious stopping situation if you've got a
"leash" to help with it.
I use heel-brake stops (without a "leash") going down real steep hills into
stop-sign intersections. And for 30-mile road-skate tours out there with
lotsa cars who sometimes do unexpected things right in front of me. For me
heel-brakes are a serious tool that really works for skating in serious
places, so I tried to make some videos that show that.
But . . .
not for speedskates.
There's at least three fundamentally different methods of using a
heel-brake -- and the most effective one I know (the method shown in those
videos) requires a high stiff back on the skate boot. Like on almost all
"recreational" skates. Like on some "fitness" skates but not others.
 . . . (Not on serious speedskates -- they need a leash in order to deliver
really strong stopping thru a heel-brake.)
But . . .
even on "recreational" skates with a high back designed for heel-brake
stopping, you have to know and use the right technique, which is not
obvious, and not known or used by most recreational skaters.
I think that a skilled skater on "recreational" skates made by Rollerblade
or K2 can learn to stop as quickly as most people on a bicycle (but not as
quick as a car).
Ken

What do you think of one footed heel braking? Obvously less stable ,
but it seems,possibly, you can center more weight on the brake

Also
What about double heel brakes?.....it allows for more rubber on road,
though it does limit crossover clearance and other moves like
transistions to back wards...heel toe skating etc...

[Motorblade]

Post by Motorblade
What do you think of one footed heel braking?

by this i mean non brake foot liffted and tucked up close to braking
leg

Post by Motorblade
Also
What about double heel brakes?

meaning brakes on both skates


I have used both methods for stopping on hills while wearing a pack
during my skate delivery days

the one footed requires very smooth consistent surface.....the double
brake simply means you don't wear one brake out so quick ....plus you
get double the stopping friction.....its REALLY fast.....you need (of
course) a second set of axles/brakes etc....

also the grey "non-marking" brakes from RB are harder and wear out
MUCH slower than the black rubber ones

[Ken Roberts]

Post by Motorblade
What do you think of one footed heel braking?

That's exactly what the third video on that page demonstrates -- unless
we're talking about different things.

Post by Motorblade
Obvously less stable, but it seems,possibly,
you can center more weight on the brake

I think it's a helpful learning exercise toward focusing centering more
weight on the brake pad. The problem is that it also tends to put more body
weight on the rear _wheel_ of the braking skate. My current thinking is that
getting weight back off that rear _wheel_ is the more important problem for
my conscious focus, because strong stopping tends to throw more weight
forward from the brake pad onto that wheel.

There's two aspects to getting more weight focused thru the brake pad: (1)
getting weight off the rear skate wheels; (2) getting weight off _all_ the
front skate wheels including the rear one next to the brake pad. Lifting the
rear skate off the ground only addresses one of those aspects (perhaps at
the expense of the other).

Post by Motorblade
What about double heel brakes?

Most of my skates have brake pads on both skates - (just not the ones in I
was using in that video). I do that: (1) in case one brake pad wears down to
far during a road tour (or in case of mechanical failure, though that's
never happened to me). (2) so I can rest one set of leg muscles and switch
to the other in the middle of a long downhill.

Post by Motorblade
it allows for more rubber on road

Sounds like now you're talking about actually using both brake pads
simultaneously. I've tried that on controlled practice situations.

"more rubber on the road" addresses only one of the two key factors which
determine stopping force. The other factor is how much downward force is
applied thru each brake pad. The answer is: at most _half_ the force on each
pad. Twice as much rubber at half the force produces (roughly) the same
stopping force. But actually it's likely less than that because with
simultaneous double-heel-braking you don't have as much balance control on
each skate, so I likely have more weight on the rear wheel of each braking
skate than I would if I were heel-braking with only one skate.

More important, in that position with both skates tilted back on their brake
pads, I'm way more committed to the braking move. It limits the speed of
recovery moves in case something goes wrong. Since I do most of my skating
out on real roads where things can change fast, I normally stay away from
methods that restrict my recovery move options and quickness.

Post by Motorblade
it does limit crossover clearance

No more so than long-blade frames used by the world's fastest ice
speedskaters.
The advantage of two heel-brakes it that it's the _same_ on both skates, so
the crossovers are symmetrical.

Ken

[Motorblade]

The other problem i found with heel braking is wedging the brake
(usually to the inside) so that the brake starts to be less flat and
your skate leans farther and farther to contact the rubber
properly.....of course a few brakes with the opposite "lean" would
plane it out again....but it is definitely a point of concentration to
keep the pressure even and avoid leaning the skate during braking....
Know what I mean ?

[Uwe Brockmann]

The other factor is how much downward force is applied thru each brake
pad.

True.

The answer is: at most _half_ the force on each pad.

False.

Twice as much rubber at half the force produces (roughly) the same
stopping force.

True, but your "half the force" assumption is false.

When using two brake pads simultaneously, using what you call the
"muscle-torque-thru-ankle-joint" method on your website, "the force
coming primarily from isometric shin muscle activity" (as per your
website) is doubled due to employment of shin muscles from both legs.

Thus, using your terminology, you are dealing with twice as much rubber
at full force producing (roughly) twice the stopping power.

[Motorblade]

Post by Uwe Brockmann
Thus, using your terminology, you are dealing with twice as much rubber
at full force producing (roughly) twice the stopping power.
--

It certainly feels that way,,,,and I couldn't state the physics of
it....but i think Uwe did....quite well.

fritz

[Ken Roberts]

Post by Uwe Brockmann
True, but your "half the force" assumption is false.
When using two brake pads simultaneously, using what you call the
"muscle-torque-thru-ankle-joint" method on your website, "the force
coming primarily from isometric shin muscle activity" (as per your
website) is doubled due to employment of shin muscles from both legs.

Good point if you use _that_ method of heel-brake stopping.
Which I think is not a very effective method unless assisted by a leash, or
if you've got way stronger shin muscles than almost anybody.
(and that was not the method I was using in the videos linked from that
page)

I think to get really effective quick stopping you've got to use a method
which gets nearly full body weight onto the brake pad(s) and off from the
wheels. If you start with a really effective method on a single
heel-brake -- such as using a leash or using the method I was demonstrating
in my videos by pressing my lower leg back against the inside of the high
cuff on my recreational skates -- then pressing a second brake pad
simultaneously doesn't add much (and might subtract) from sustainable
stopping force -- because the fundamental limiting factor is total body
weight, not shin muscles.

Simultaneous double heel-braking can be fun as a trick for smooth flat
pavement, but I very much doubt that many people are going to be satisfied
with it as a stopping method for serious situations like going down a steep
hill (over 10% grade) with a stop-sign intersection at the bottom.

Ken

[Motorblade]

Post by Ken Roberts

Post by Uwe Brockmann
True, but your "half the force" assumption is false.
When using two brake pads simultaneously, using what you call the
"muscle-torque-thru-ankle-joint" method on your website, "the force
coming primarily from isometric shin muscle activity" (as per your
website) is doubled due to employment of shin muscles from both legs.

Good point if you use _that_ method of heel-brake stopping.
Which I think is not a very effective method unless assisted by a leash, or
if you've got way stronger shin muscles than almost anybody.
(and that was not the method I was using in the videos linked from that
page)
I think to get really effective quick stopping you've got to use a method
which gets nearly full body weight onto the brake pad(s) and off from the
wheels. If you start with a really effective method on a single
heel-brake -- such as using a leash or using the method I was demonstrating
in my videos by pressing my lower leg back against the inside of the high
cuff on my recreational skates -- then pressing a second brake pad
simultaneously doesn't add much (and might subtract) from sustainable
stopping force -- because the fundamental limiting factor is total body
weight, not shin muscles.
Simultaneous double heel-braking can be fun as a trick for smooth flat
pavement, but I very much doubt that many people are going to be satisfied
with it as a stopping method for serious situations like going down �a steep
hill (over 10% grade) with a stop-sign intersection at the bottom.
Ken

true enough....I like the double heel brake for my two dog skate
team....when they see a squirrel , i can lean back on my double heel
brakes and hold em back better than a single brake....and since they
pull in off center directions leaning back on two brakes actually can
be more stable at times than the one brake.

[Uwe Brockmann]

Post by Ken Roberts

Post by Ken Roberts
http://www.roberts-1.com/t/808/hb

the "muscle-torque-thru-ankle-joint" method on your website

Which I think is not a very effective method

There is no difference between your muscle-torque-thru-ankle-joint
and gravity-directly-thru-ankle methods. With both methods you use the
same muscles in the same way.

I would call both the "pull-up-the-front-of-the-foot" method. Its
effectiveness varies greatly with skate design. It will be higher with
shorter wheelbase skates that place the rearmost wheel and the brake pad
further forward.

You conclude that the method is not "very effective" because you change
its name when using skates that are sufficiently favorably designed to
make it "very effective"!

Think of doubling the stopping power of your gravity-directly-thru-ankle
method. That is the kind of stopping power that Fritz and I are talking
about.

Post by Ken Roberts
If you start with a really effective method on a single heel-brake --
such as using a leash
then pressing a second brake pad simultaneously doesn't add much
(and might subtract) from sustainable stopping force -- because the
fundamental limiting factor is total body weight, not shin muscles.

In my experience using two brakes and two leashes simultaneously
greatly increases stopping power over using a single brake and leash.
Stopping power varies with brake pad wear regardless of leash use. These
observations suggest that the shin muscles *are* the limiting factor.

Post by Ken Roberts
Simultaneous double heel-braking can be fun as a trick for smooth flat
pavement, but

You underestimate the potential of using two heel brakes
simultaneously. You may want to give it another try. If both brake pads
are worn evenly it will be easier than braking with one brake with the
other foot off the ground. You may soon be outbraking your old self!

In my experience the hardest part about braking effectively is
convincing yourself to try a proven method that you think does not work.

I did not believe that simultaneous use of two brakes or the use of
leashes was effective but I was proven wrong both times.

[Ken Roberts]

Post by Uwe Brockmann
I did not believe that simultaneous use of two brakes or the use of
leashes was effective but I was proven wrong both times.

I'm a happy user of a Gatorleash (on my other pairs of skates that don't
have a boot cuff with a high back), so there's no argument to be had (with
me) about the effectiveness of leashes.

As for simultaneous use of two brakes:
Post your own video which duplicates the situation in my video on the top
right of this page:
http://www.roberts-1.com/t/808/hb
of rolling down a steep hill greater than 10% grade and stopping quickly
just before the bottom.
Then people can look at both and decide which method they would actually
want to use.

It's interesting and useful to debate about the physics, but the point (for
me) is to find stopping methods that work better for skating out on real
roads and streets, with cars and animals doing unexpected things, with real
hills, with eroded pavement.

Post by Uwe Brockmann
In my experience the hardest part about braking effectively is
convincing yourself to try a proven method that you think does not work.

In point of fact, I have tried simultaneous double heel-brake stopping. The
reason I have not practiced it lots for using in my road-skating is not
because it didn't feel like it offered as stable balance and quick recovery
moves for robust use in a wide range of situations out on real roads (which
is where I do almost all my skating). Real-world stopping out on the roads
is more complicated than just optimizing static friction.

(btw - It does not _sound_ like you've actually tried the heel-braking
method of pushing the lower leg back against the inside back of a boot with
a high stiff cuff.)

Unfortunately I'm going to be away from the net for awhile, so I likely will
not get to respond further about this soon.

Ken

[Motorblade]

Post by Ken Roberts

Post by Uwe Brockmann
I did not believe that simultaneous use of two brakes or the use of
leashes was effective but I was proven wrong both times.

I'm a happy user of a Gatorleash (on my other pairs of skates that don't
have a boot cuff with a high back), so there's no argument to be had (with
me) about the effectiveness of leashes.
Post your own video which duplicates the situation in my video on the top
right of this page:http://www.roberts-1.com/t/808/hb
of rolling down a steep hill greater than 10% grade and stopping quickly
just before the bottom.
Then people can look at both and decide which method they would actually
want to use.
It's interesting and useful to debate about the physics, but the point (for
me) is to find stopping methods that work better for skating out on real
roads and streets, with cars and animals doing unexpected things, with real
hills, with eroded pavement.

Post by Uwe Brockmann
In my experience the hardest part about braking effectively is
convincing yourself to try a proven method that you think does not work.

In point of fact, I have tried simultaneous double heel-brake stopping. The
reason I have not practiced it lots for using in my road-skating is not
because it didn't feel like it offered as stable balance and quick recovery
moves for robust use in a wide range of situations out on real roads (which
is where I do almost all my skating). Real-world stopping out on the roads
is more complicated than just optimizing static friction.
(btw - It does not _sound_ like you've actually tried the heel-braking
method of pushing the lower leg back against the inside back of a boot with
a high stiff cuff.)
Unfortunately I'm going to be away from the net for awhile, so I likely will
not get to respond further about this soon.
Ken

Nice discussion....i will try the method of pushing the lower leg back
against the inside back of a boot with
a high stiff cuff

a.k.a. P.L.L.B.A.I.B.B.H.S.C

[Uwe Brockmann]

i will try the method of pushing the lower leg back against the inside
back of a boot with a high stiff cuff

I found that method to be more effective when braking with only one foot
(with the other foot trailing on the ground). However, it can also have
some benefit when using two brakes simultaneously.

If you increase your stopping power by using two heel brakes
simultaneously you will have to lean back further to maintain balance
while braking. This increases pressure on the high stiff cuffs (where
available) thus further increasing stopping power.

In most situations, that I have encountered, I have preferred the
simultaneous use ot two brakes due to higher stopping power. However,
assuming suitable skates, in some situations braking with only one
foot and exerting pressure on the cuff, as suggested by Ken, works
better because it provides higher stability (compared to using two
brakes simultaneously) while still delivering increased stopping power
(compared to not exerting pressure on the cuff.)

Braking with two brakes simultaneously is not an all-or-nothing
proposition. I found that, for each brake maneuver, it is easier to
maintain stability by transitioning first from not braking to braking
with one brake and second from braking with one brake to braking with
two brakes. If conditions are not suitable for the second transition the
brake maneuver deteriorates to braking with only one foot, optionally
with exertion of pressure on the cuff. The result is no worse than when
setting out to brake with only one foot to begin with.

Ken has reported encountering conditions unsuitable for the simultaneous
use of two heel brakes more frequently than I have. The difference could
be due to differences between skates and foot sizes.

P.L.L.B.A.I.B.B.H.S.C

?

[John Doe]

Post by Ken Roberts
Simultaneous double heel-braking can be fun as a trick for smooth
flat pavement, but I very much doubt that many people are going to
be satisfied with it as a stopping method for serious situations
like going down a steep hill (over 10% grade) with a stop-sign
intersection at the bottom.

For speed control, I've been using a step and roll. It's something
like a stepping stop or maybe more like reverse pushing. I still
think a heel brake is an excellent stopping device for in-line
skating.